point of order. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. the nonstop partisan attack it is on our president remind me of the joke about the young postal worker when the postmaster told him he was the fastest mail sorter he'd seen, his response was you just wait until i learn how to read. the right wing assault on president obama is just like that. nothing to do with the information, only with the relentless e desire to throw punches at the white house so fast people can't figure out what they're punching at. today on capitol hill elijah cummings had enough of the attack. >> if you will sit down and allow me to ask the question. i am a member of the congress of the united states of america. i am tired of this. we have members over here each

who represent 700,000 people. you cannot just have a one-sided investigation. >> cummings had just witnessed a typical assault. darrell issa had just choreographed another day of beating the dead horse of the irs so-called scandal. like benghazi and obamacare and now ukraine, it's the bang bang bang bang of the conservative arsenal. just say the words and the peanut gallery explodes, say all four and it levitates with glee. benghazi, benghazi, irs, irs, obamacare, obamacare, ukraine, ukraine. joining me now is the congressman involved here, elijah cummings of maryland. and david corn joins me from mother jones. let's start with the far right's obsession of the irs which erupted into one of the most dramatic scenes you will see in a congressional hearing room.

it started with oversight committee chairman representative darrell issa recalling lois lerner to the witness stand after she previously took the fifth. in a hearing last may. she took the fifth again today, but not before issa made a spectacle by berating her. she didn't answer any of the questions. when the ranking member of the committee, our guest elijah cummings, tried to interject, issa literally cut off his microphone and declared the hearing over. >> ladies and gentlemen, seeking the truth is the obligation of this committee. i can see no point in going further. i have no expectation that ms. lerner will cooperate with this committee and therefore we stand adjourned. >> mr. chairman, i have a statement. i have procedural question, mr. chairman. mr. chairman, i have a procedural question. mr. chairman, you cannot run a

committee like this. you just cannot do this. this is -- we're better than that as a country, we're better than that as a committee. i have asked for a few minutes to ask -- and now you're turning me off. >> we're adjourned. >> i don't care. i am asking a question. i am a ranking member of this committee and i want to ask a question. what are we hiding? what's the big deal? may i ask my question? may i make my statement? >> you're all free to leave. we've adjourned, but the gentleman may ask his question. >> thank you very much. mr. chairman, i have one procedural question. and it goes to you trying to get the information you just asked. >> what is your question? >> let me say what i have to say. i've listened to you for the last 15 or 20 minutes. let me say what i have to say. i have one procedural question. >> ms. lerner, you're released. >> but first i would like to use my time to make some brief

points. for the past year the central republican accusation in this investigation -- >> we're adjourned. close it down. >> we're adjourned. close it down. that's democracy. it didn't end there. issa continued his attempt to science congressman cummings. let's watch the whole moment here. here it is. >> what is your question? >> if you will sit down and allow me to ask the question. i am a member of the congress of the united states of america. i am tired of this! we have members over here each who represent 700,000 people. you cannot just have a one-sided investigation. there is absolutely something wrong with that and it's absolutely un-american. >> hear hear. >> we had a hearing. we have adjourned. i gave you an opportunity to ask a question. you have no question.

>> i do have a question. >> i gave you an opportunity. >> chairman, what are you hiding? >> it went on like that when the hearing was technically over or not didn't matter to the democrats on the panel. u.s. congressman cummings, you kept talking. and ms. lerner stayed there and listened. you and connolly were shouting to the room because the microphones had been disabled. this went on for five minutes. after issa walked out of the hearing room, he went to reporters to say you were, quote, slandering him. issa also proclaimed he was moving forward with the investigation. congressman cummings, this looks like you were there as a studio audience to watch this opera go on where the official took the fifth amendment, everybody knew her answer would be the same and then he goes through the process of asking ten questions for the cameras. not for the person in the booth there in the witness chair. >> yeah. the ten questions, chris, i think were basically he wanted to i guess embarrass her. but the key here, chris, is that over the past nine months, this investigation has been

conducted. but several months ago russell george, the ig appointed by a republican administration said that there was no white house involvement with regard to these irs so-called targeting. nor was there any political motivation. that was already stated. and we have now interviewed in a bipartisan way 38 witnesses from irs. they spent $14 million over the past nine months answering subpoenas from chairman issa and other republicans. and there is no evidence, but they want us to believe -- and that's what this is all about, i think, that the president -- that is, the white house had something to do with these efforts on the part of the irs. now, keep in mind, if we were really looking for the truth, we would bring forward the man who said he started all of this. the conservative republican 20-year veteran of the irs who

said he was the one that started it. now, chairman issa has refused to bring him before our committee and the country so he can explain what he was doing and even he said there were no political motivation and the white house was not involved in this whatsoever. >> let me bring in david corn for a second. looks to me like totally apart from the procedures of the now, chairman issa has refused to bring him before our committee and the country so he can explain what he was doing and even he said there were no political motivation and the white house was not involved in this whatsoever. >> let me bring in david corn for a second. looks to me like totally apart from the procedures of the committee in what happened there. it looks like it's part of this continued updating if you will, ripping off of the scab of the irs talk. of course they do it on health care. they had yet another vote on

health care today. benghazi, they talk about it every 15 minutes. and now ukraine. they need this consistent list of drums to beat. over and over again. they got to keep them alive. they've got to have hearings even though lois lerner wasn't going to testify. keep it alive through november. >> yes. they don't want this to fade away. congressman cummings is right. if you look at some of the testimony that he's released, it shows that there was no specific targeting only of tea party groups. which is the essence of the republican charge. and that it was connected to the white house. that is totally evaporated. so what do you do? you bring on so forward in a soviet style show trial company who you know is going to plead the fifth. you just ask these questions. isn't it true this, isn't it true that, knowing they will not answer. rather than bring forward people who might tell you what happened. what happened at the irs as you know was a problem. there is something to investigate. it's not a political witch hunt, but something went wrong.

but they don't want to do that. so the idea is just keep bringing up -- >> what went wrong? >> what went wrong was they were targeting groups on the left and right on the middle -- >> but no direction from the white house. congressman, is there any reason to believe that somebody in the white house -- i mean, anybody the the white house ever made a call over there and said screw the right wing groups? >> there's no evidence of that whatsoever. and chairman issa knows that. keep in mind, chris, what i was trying to do today was follow up on something that chairman issa had been involved in. that is getting a proffer from ms. lerner's attorney. and basically he would have told us what her answers to those questions would be. and it would not be binding on the committee. and they could still pursue her any way they wanted to. but he didn't even want to hear that. that's why he shut it down. and the attorney had offered to do that. >> let me ask you about a personal aspect. did you feel personally -- was

he breaking with protocol? how would you break down what we saw there? >> i've been around long enough, 63 years on this earth. i've got to tell you. i don't get caught up in the disrespect thing. aye seen so much of it. what i do get caught up in is distractions. when you distract me from finding the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. when you cherry pick information and put it out there but don't give me the entire picture and only present the evidence that you want to hear. that's what i'm more concerned about. because i think that's unfair to our committee and it's unfair to the american people. and it goes against our credibility as a congress and a committee. >> thank you. as i said, the far right does tend to use benghazi as the universal theory connected to any issue as an excuse to attack president obama.

there is no topic too out there for them to cry benghazi, by the way. here is just a few of them. we're tying this together. benghazi, irs, health care, and now ukraine. let's watch it again here. >> this is a symptom of greater problem. it really in many ways started with benghazi. when our consulate was overrun and our first ambassador was kicked in 30-something years. >> one of the problems with the focus on syria is it's missing the ball from what we should be focused on is the grave threat from islamic terrorists. this is the one-year attack on benghazi. the president promised to hunt down the wrong doers. yet it's disappeared. >> in the case of the talking points composition. we've been totally stone walled throughout that process. >> we've had a couple of years in washington with a lot of situations like that irs thing, benghazi, et cetera. we have a president that runs away from press conferences like this, never takes accountability, never fires anybody. >> you know, it's like being rudy giuliani or someone.

you have to go on a sunday show. all you have to do is remember the three words. irs, benghazi, or health care. >> let's look at what ted cruz said. this is telling. how long did it take to get osama bin laden? ten years. and the president as we know for the whole back story was dedicated, devoted, and pushed the bureaucracy to do what it could to go after him. now he's saying a few months after benghazi we haven't gotten the guys yet and that shows the president is weak? this stuff doesn't pass the laugh test. yet his base, his audience, the people who giuliani is talking to. >> the peanut gallery is laughing. they love it out there. >> they hear he benghazi stuff over and over. it's wrong for ambassador stevens. >> congressman elijah cummings, thank you for coming on tonight

after a strange day in u.s. congress. it wasn't a good day for the chairman of that committee. thank you as well david corn for coming on. coming up, the situation in ukraine. robert gates a republican has a message for president obama's right wing critics. cool it. tone down the rhetoric. stop the crazy talk about missiles. this is gates talking. plus last night in texas, the establishment wing of the republican party won big battles. make no mistake, the tea party won the war down there. the mad hatter of the tea party down there, texas senator ted cruz himself who pushed his party further to the fringe. and the red hot debate over charter schools up in new york especially. the latest fight pits new york city's new democratic mayor against a leading school's charter mayor. she says the city has a lot to learn about teaching kids. finally, let me finish with the prepubescent behavior of the republican party. that's right. this is "hardball,"the place for politics. you've tried to forget

your hepatitis c. it's slow moving, you tell yourself. i have time. after all there may be no symptoms for years. no wonder you try to push it to the back of your mind and forget it. but here's something you shouldn't forget. hepatitis c is a serious disease. if left untreated, it could lead to liver damage and potentially even liver cancer. if you are one of the millions of people with hepatitis c, you haven't been forgotten. there's never been a better time to rethink your hep c. because people like you may benefit from scientific advances. advances that could help you move on from hep c. now is the time to rethink hep c and talk to your doctor. visit hepchope.com to find out about treatment options. and register for a personalized guide

to help you prepare for a conversation with your doctor. how much has chris christie's political trouble hurt him at home? we've got new polling. for that we check the "hardball" score board. according to a new rutgers poll, new jersey voters prefer hillary clinton for president more than their own governor. clinton 51, christie 41. in his state home to more democrats than republicans. finally in the weekly poll out of virginia showing a tight race. here's one with a different result. it's hillary clinton by eight in that swing state. 48 to 40. we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." the president and his administration have come under strong criticism by conservatives this past week for not being tough enough with vladimir putin. >> this president does not understand vladimir putin. he does not understand his ambitions.

he does not understand that vladimir putin is an old kgb colonel bent on restoration of the soviet of the russian empire. >> the u.s. is behaving in a way that in the world we're in decline, we're in withdrawal. we created a leadership vacuum in the world. it is u.s. weakness that has shaken the world. >> the perception of him and his potency across the world is one of such weakness. you know, look it. people are looking at putin as one who wrestles bears and drills for oil. they look at our president as one who wears mom jeans. >> i'll never get over that one. let's not forget ted cruz who wrote yet, quote, vladimir putin running rampant in ukraine showcases how the obama administration's abdication is making the world a more dangerous place. one is issuing the bugle blowing crowd to cool it. gates said i think considerable care needs to be taken in terms

of what is said so the rhetoric doesn't threaten what policy can't deliver. to tone down their criticism and try to be supportive of the president instead of natter at the president. kerry med with sergey lavrov. afterwards, he spoke of hope for de-escalation of tension. >> russia made a choice. and we have clearly stated that we believe it is the wrong choice, that is the choice to move troops into crimea. russia can now choose to de-escalate this situation. and we are committed to working with russia. and together with our friends and allies in an effort to provide a way for this entire situation to find the road to de-escalation. the united states is ready to work with all parties to make that happen and to make it happen as soon as possible. >> russian president vladimir putin has also spoken to angela merkel today. if diplomacy fails, the u.s. and its allies could put in sanctions against russia in a matter of days.

howard fineman and michael mcfall. he's now a fellow at the hoover institution and an msnbc analyst. mr. ambassador, it's great to the united states is ready to work with all parties to make that happen and to make it happen as soon as possible. >> russian president vladimir putin has also spoken to angela merkel today. if diplomacy fails, the u.s. and its allies could put in sanctions against russia in a matter of days. howard fineman and michael mcfall. he's now a fellow at the hoover institution and an msnbc analyst. mr. ambassador, it's great to have you. give us your sense of the limits of this crisis. is there a sense in your mind

right now based on your experience that vladimir putin has pushed as far as he's going to go or you think he might go further? >> chris, i don't think he's decided. i don't think he knows the end game himself. this was an impulsive move. this is not something he's been plotting for decades. it was a response to the collapse of the government in kiev. he was frustrated by that so he decided to do this in crimea. i don't think he knows where to go next. it could escalate. when there are soldiers running around with guns threatening people as we saw today, unintended consequences can come of that. however, at the other point, i do think it was a good meeting that secretary kerry and lavrov had today to keep the diplomacy door still open. >> i'm going to ask an open question. what is our diplomacy aimed at? cooling the jets in kiev so it doesn't cause trouble by giving

a situation that the russians can take advantage of? is it to keep their morale up so they don't give in too easily to putin's pressures? what is it? >> definitely to cool their jets and i think the ukrainian government has behaved responsibly given the circumstances. secondly to shore them up. they're on the verge of an economic collapse. our european allies need to help them. and if critics of president obama wanted to help them, that's what they should be focusing on. an aid package to ukraine. not unlike the billion-dollar aid package to georgia. and third, to find a way for putin to get off the offramp. find a way to back away. that's the third element of the diplomacy today. >> of course that was the way we got through the cuban missile crisis. kennedy said we take out the jupiter missiles in turkey under the table there. the senate hearing today, john mccain grilled secretary of

defense chuck hagel about russia. let's watch that. >> mr. putin denies there are troops in russia. when mr. lavrov says today they can't withdraw russian troops because there are no russian troops in crimea, does that have some echoes to you of cold war? >> well, i think secretary kerry addressed this pretty clearly in his comments specifically about your point about no credible -- >> i was asking for your view, sir. >> i agree with secretary kerry. >> which is? >> he laid it out that we don't accept anything as putin said as fact about why they had to protect the so-called ethnic minority in crimea. >> you know, howard, it's amazing to watch john kerry -- we were talking during the quotes there. i have a feeling kerry's very formality the way he speaks even

without contractions, i am concerned. normally we laugh at that stuffiness but it's working here. it keeps things calm and professional. he's like that with sergey lavrov. >> he's known lavrov for a long time. they've talked many times behind closed doors together. kerry at least thinks he has a pretty good relationship with lavrov. and they're talking. these are old pros here. kerry knows lavrov going back to the foreign relations committee way, way back. lavrov's been around forever. and they're probably sitting there thinking, okay. how do we cool this situation? i think that's what's happening. lavrov's not going to say that publicly, i think that's what's happening privately. according to people i know who know the region well, the provisional ukrainian government now is very shrewdly appealing to the wealthy businessmen in the eastern part of the ukraine to stand with the new government, to stay with the new government.

not to go with nationalism in parts of the east because those rich businessmen don't want their businesses taken away by the russians. they want to stay part of the ukraine. and the ukrainians have done a good job of limiting the damage for now to the crimea area. and they're sort of hemming putin in in the area that he's put himself. >> there was tough talk today from former secretary of state hillary clinton last night at a fund raiser for the boys and girls clubs in california. she drew a parallel for some of what putin is do to adolph hitler in world war ii. specifically to issue passports to russian speakers down in crimea. the long beach telegram recorded what she said which was a violation of parameters laid out by organizers. although that rule's been broken before. let's listen. >> now, if this sounds familiar, it's what hitler did back in the '30s. all the germans that were, you know, the ethnic germans, the

germans by ancestry who were in places like czechoslovakia and romania and other places, you know, hitler kept saying they're not being treated right. i must go and protect my people. and that's what's gotten everybody so nervous. >> well, it should be noted that secretary clinton also made clear she backed the president's diplomatic efforts. mr. ambassador, everybody on this show said to stop making comparisons to hitler. but the concerns about russia and the concerns about the russian speaking people and about the naval port there and all about crimea, is that to say they want to return? is there a call among the people of the eastern ukraine who speak russian, that they want to be part of russia again? i hear the opposite. what do you know? >> well, opinion polls taken in

ukraine before the crisis escalated to where it is now underscoresed that people don't want. 20% are ukrainian. the other 20% are tatars. they don't want in the issues of ukraine. so i don't think there's a big appetite among the people involved here to split ukraine in half and have to go back to a debate other who is part of russia and who is not. with respect to the naval base, the naval base has been under agreement with the government of ukraine. that's not in jeopardy. nobody has raised the idea that that needs to be closed. and with respect to russians in crimea, let's be clear. not a single ethnic russian has been harmed in crimea so far in this entire crisis. >> you must have been a great ambassador, sir. great to have you on here. thank you former ambassador michael mcfaul.

as the right fawns over putin while bashing obama, stephen colbert picks up where sarah palin left off. that's next in the side show. and this is "hardball," the place for politics. so i get invited to quite a few family gatherings. heck, i saved judith here a fortune with discounts like safe driver, multi-car, paperless. you make a mighty fine missus, m'lady. i'm not saying mark's thrifty. let's just say,

i saved him $519, and it certainly didn't go toward that ring. am i right? [ laughs ] [ dance music playing ] so visit progressive.com today. i call this one "the robox."

you hear all these stories about people on food stamps. they're going to vegas and they're able to draw out money at casinos. >> yes, you do hear all of these stories. whether or not they're true. indicative of widespread abuse, it's not a point here because you hear them. and as a reporter on a news network, it is your job to pass them along through your mouth hole. as your slogan says, fox news. we read the chain mails your grandma gets in her inbox out loud like they were true.

>> time for the side show. that was jon stewart last night on the tendency of food stamp critics to overstate the degree of abuse and fraud in that program. it's all word of mouth. anyway, back in june the website politifact verified that 97% of food stamp benefits are paid in the proper amounts to people who are really eligible. and the remaining percent is due to error or underpayment. not fraud. next up, i don't think the people on the right even heard that. we've discussed here on "hardball" the president is under fire from some on the right for his handling in the conflict of russia and ukraine. they say he's being weak. sarah palin even criticized him for wearing mom jeans while putin wrestles bears. she should know.

she kept an eye on putin from alaska, remember? leave it to stephen colbert had to pile on. here's what he had to say about the leadership just last night. >> what does russia's latest crimean crime mean? it means i get to run one of my favorite graphics. this is cold war update. the president of the united states is getting out-played. look at what he wore saturday during a tense 90-minute phone call with vladimir putin. no tie. jeans with a jean shirt. what is this? casual doomsday? meanwhile on the other end, you know putin's shirtless stroking a tiger looking into an infinity mirror. >> next up, lone star lunacy. establishment republicans may have won in texas yesterday, but the real winners are the tea party again and the mad hatter, the leader of them all, ted cruz. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. ♪

♪ ♪ where you think you're gonna go ♪ ♪ when your time's all gone? [ male announcer ] live a full life. the new lexus ct hybrid with an epa estimated 42 mpg. ♪ the further you go, the more interesting it gets. this is the pursuit of perfection.

welcome back to "hardball." election night in cruz country. last night the lone star state held primaries for biggest political prizes include governor, lieutenant governor, and u.s. senate. a few tea partiers fizzled, some in spectacular fashion. but make no mistake about it, the tea party made a big splash in these contests. if you want proof, just look at how nbc's first read summarized things. quote, if the gop establishment largely won the battle last night, the tea party already won the war. every republican running for the office up and down the ballot did so by running hard against president obama even in cases that had nothing to do with the president. every race was a challenge to

see who could hate the president the most, who is the purist conservative. the leader of the circus is senator ted cruz. though he wasn't on the ballot, it's not difficult to see what's going on here. his wacko brand looks like it's reshaping the state in his image. candidates ran on a simple message. we hate obama. we love ted cruz. well, if you needed proof, you got it last night. texas is cruz country. wayne slater is with the dallas morning news and donna dukes is a representative down in texas. i want to go to wayne first. wayne, is this right what i just said? check me on this. i looked at dewhurst, i looked a the way they campaigned. even the centrist or center leaning are right wingers down there. >> oh, yeah. look, the tea party won the debate here, won all these races on the republican side of the primary ballot before a single vote was cast. you had in the lieutenant

governors race the establishment candidate finishing second to a state senator who called immigrants invaders. they were part of an invasion. and the attorney general's race, you had a commercial which was successful for the guy who came out first which was basically of ted cruz. it was like watching these commercials like watching that scene in spartacus. i am spartacus. everyone was saying i am ted cruz, i am ted cruz. what's that you saw up and down the ballot. the message was defined by the tea party. everyone followed it whether or not there were a few fizzles at the top of the ballot. >> what happened to the texas that voted for huebert humphrey in '68? when did it switch to the hardest of hard rights? >> started with ronald reagan in 1980 and a function -- a longtime function again with many states of civil rights over the years.

you really saw the emergence in strength of the republicans with george w. bush in 2004. and after that as you know, there hasn't been a republican -- a democrat elected to statewide office in 20 years. the last time a republican was elected governor of -- democrat was elected governor of texas was ann richards in 1990. so it's been a long, long time and a long, long road for democrats in the lone star state. >> let's talk to one now. representative donna dukes. thank you for joining us down there. >> thanks, chris. >> what's it feel like? you are surrounded by people that are a 180 from you. they're far to the right of you. right? >> oh, they are far to the -- they're so far to the right they're off the earth, chris. their ideas are just unbelievable. and they are very much like ted cruz.

they don't think. they just parrot and do whatever they think is going to make them to appear to be the most conservative and have the most hatred for people who are in the greatest need. >> well, that's what i want to get to. we'll get to social justice for a minute, but the personality of cruz always amazes me. i can see the appeal of a rand paul. kind of a libertarian. i don't think he's a hater. he wants total and utter freedom. but he believes in it. fine. barry goldwater was like that. but cruz looks like a guy out to get people. he votes against every nominee. he makes chuck hagel out to be a guy selling us out. he makes these personal attacks on patriotism. he even looks and acts like joe mccarthy. why do people in texas think he's the second coming of what? joe mccarthy? why do they like him? >> i got to tell you, chris. ted cruz doesn't like when you compare him to joseph mccarthy. that gets under his skin.

he told me that. but part of this is he reflects a kind of loud, direct, unequivocal, unnuanced, we don't want to do what they want to do. they meaning the liberals and certainly in the last eight years president obama. so he really is a perfect mouthpiece for both the social conservativism of texas as well as the second amendment rights of texas. most of us know ted cruz is in this for ted cruz in the 2016 race, he does reflect a kind of reflexive lone star, i don't want to get along with any of these liberals mentality. and that pays dividends. >> let me ask representative dukes. here's the powerhouse question of the night. we all hear about the demographics. we hear about them growing up in the state and becoming actively involved in politics.

when does it become a purple state? when does it become the riders of the purple sage again? when's that happen? >> well, i think you should not and no one should count out wendy davis who has run -- >> go for it. make a case. can she win? >> -- in a district twice that was 53% republican. she is now running for governor of texas. we never saw energy of the type of the sort of the size that we saw when wendy davis did the filibuster. there were hundreds of thousands of people who showed up. and let me tell you, women are mad in texas. democrats are mad in texas. people who have not voted in a very long time are mad in texas. and the best thing that could happen is to have the farthest right wing fruitcake on the ticket run against her. >> is that greg abbott you described? >> he is one of them. with greg we can go after him on the redistricting and fighting the medicaid expansion. there will be a litany of issues that people are angry about.

those are the people who are starting to turn out the vote and have a lot of excitement about wendy at the top of this ticket. >> thanks for coming on. state representative donna dukes. i'm going to learn that name and hear it many times. anyway, thank you wayne slater. you always give us the goods. up next, the debate over charter schools. it's a red hot fight right in new york city. did they succeed where public schools have failed or do they just get the best students and get the best numbers? this is "hardball," the place for politics.

st. patrick's day comes early today. bill clinton was at the university for the study of peace. it's named for tip o'neill and the irish leading john hume. o'neill along with kennedy and moynahan were those who led for peace in ireland. o'neill later won ronald reagan's support in getting british prime minister margaret thatcher to back the historic

reconciliation. all of which led to the good friday peace accords that finally ended the troubles. we'll be right back after this. we're back, as a candidate for mayor committed to lead new york city in a new progressive direction, including de blasio's promise, he aimed to slow the growth of charter schools in favor of more traditional neighborhood public schools. the mayor has now cancelled an agreement, negotiated by his predecessor which would have allowed three new charter schools to operate in public

we're back, as a candidate we're back, as a candidate for mayor committed to lead new york city in a new progressive direction, including de blasio's promise, he aimed to slow the growth of charter schools in favor of more traditional neighborhood public schools. the mayor has now cancelled an agreement, negotiated by his predecessor which would have allowed three new charter schools to operate in public school buildings.

this has awoken a sleeping giant. andrew cuomo typically avoids controversy and shuns the national spotlight. he rallied in opposition to the mayor. big fight between the two of them. even the new york post called gov know cuomo a class act. >> you are here, 11,000 strong. you are braving the cold to stand up for your rights. this is the most important civic lesson you will learn because this is democracy, and this is how you make your voice heard. . and we are here to tell you we stand with you, you are not alone, we will save charter schools. >> that's dramatic for governor cuomo, the three schools de blasio plans to close are run by

moscowitz. if you thought that brass knuckle political pay back was something practiced exclusively in the western banks of the hudson river, you were wrong. joining me now is herself, eva moscowitz, founder of charter schools in new york city. i agree with you, and i want to make sure you understand i'm playing devil's advocate here. you go to public schools, some kids go to the neighborhood schools, the ones they would walk to if they're lucky. okay. they get everybody. charter schools get students who are maybe smarter, maybe, they get kids who definitely -- parents who care a little bit more about their upbringing, a little more money, a little more resources. is it fair to compare the results of the two kinds of schools and say charters are better because they get higher

numbers? >> district schools are zoned according to zip code. you have much more affluent kids. charter schools we admit by random lottery, if you look at our numbers, you'll see the same number of special needs children, english language learners, title one kids, i don't think that's a fair statement. people keep trying to explain away our results, instead of asking, well, how did you get the results? we got those results because our kids work incredibly hard, our parents -- we encourage our parents to come in on saturday and our faculty is very talented and our leaders are very talented. i think there's an attempt to do a gotcha which undermines our kids in harlem, are outperforming the kids in wealthy suburbs, and that's a lot of hard work. >> okay, to what extent -- what role does the parent play. answer this i don't know the

answer, to get into a charter school, doesn't the parent have to play a bigger role? >> it's hard to enrole your child in district kindergarten, i've done it as a parent myself. as a charter, we bring the application to paersons, we have a high percentage of parents in the neighborhood applying, it's way over subscribed. >> explain the politics of de blasio. i think he won because people love the idea of harmony in his own household. do you think he got elected because he campaigned against charter schools? >> no, he was anti-charter, but i think his rhetoric is something i deeply believe in. there are educational haves and have notes, there is inequality in new york city and the state and the country. and progressives like myself, we

share that view -- >> why are you being nice to him and he's being so tough on you? >> my brother brought me up to be gracious. >> are you going to win this fight? are you going to be around? >> i think we will, because parents are determined, it's morally wrong, he's trying to close the highest performing middle school in math in the entire state of new york in fifth grade. i don't think anyone can get away with that. they have a right to a great free public education. >> it's great to have you on. i never saw anyone get better press, you get great press. we'll be right back after this. let me finish tonight with this, i sometimes think -- let me correct that, i generally notice that whenever president . joe doesn't know it yet, but he'll work his way up from busser to waiter to chef before opening a restaurant specializing in fish and game from the great northwest. he'll start investing early, he'll find some good people to help guide him,

and he'll set money aside from his first day of work to his last, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade.

let me finish tonight with this, i sometimes think -- let me correct that, i generally notice that whenever president obama takes a position, the other party attacks it. then takes another position for itself. it reminds me of how as a kid, my brother would root for the new york yankees, forcing me to root for the cleveland indians. he would root for the navy, forcing me to take the side of the army. he would root for the north in the civil war, and i would have to root for the south. has the republican party of john

mccain and lindsey graham become the second brother of american politics? obama takes a heritage foundation program on health care, the individual mandate, one that republicans used to like, now, because they have to play the rebellious brother have to attack. the democrats control the administration, which includes the irs. so republicans have to attack that. the democrats control the state department, so again, little brother has to go on the attack, and then, of course, it's ukraine. does any party in power have the answer for vladimir putin's have to answer for vladimir putin's behavior? does that make you a big brother? a lot of this is just sheer partisan robotic behavior. is the purpose of the opposition is to merely oppose, the republicans have that down just about perfectly. if it's just to play the role of the second brother, they got it cold, an 8-year-old can play their game, as i recall, i did. that's hardball for now, thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now.

good evening, from new york, i'm chris hayes, the situation in ukraine remains tense as the stand-off continues. secretary of state john kerry met today in paris with russian foreign minister sergei lavrov but could not convince him to meet directly with the acting ukrainian foreign minister. meanwhile a senior u.n. envoy was threatened at gunpoint by someone in a prorussian crowd that demanded he leave the area. on the ground the situation remained extremely tense as russian forces continued to occupy ukrainian military installations, and maintain their blockade of ukrainian military ships in crimea. in the eastern part of the country meanwhile, scuffles broke out ben